• Registered: 2007-10-28
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Topic: Masculine negatives problems

I've been experimenting with masculine negatives lately (～ない　⇒　～ん） and I ran into problems with 2 verbs, ある　and いる. You can quickly imagine what happens in the conversion.
There isn't ⇒　ない　⇒　ん　⇒　うん　⇒　Yes　⇒ There is
Also, いない becomes いん...
My question(s) is(are): Are there masculine negatives for these two verbs?  And if so, what are they?

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Quote Post 1

  • From: 大阪市住吉区帝塚山中
  • Registered: 2005-05-22
  • Posts: 5,800

Re: Masculine negatives problems

First, ん only applies to verbs:
しらない　→　しらん
いない　→　おらん
時間がない　→　Ｘ

Second, ん isn't masculine per se. It's just a short, semi-old sounding negative. If you insist on wanting to sound 'masculine' use the えぇ transformation for words:

いない　→　いねぇ
時間がない　→　時間がねぇ
しらない　→　しら（ん）ねぇ・しんねぇ

蒔かぬ種は生えぬ

Quote Post 2

  • richvh
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Re: Masculine negatives problems

ない⇒あらん (あらない isn't used, but あらぬ is, and ～ん comes from ～ぬ, not ～ない.)

Richard VanHouten
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Quote Post 3

  • taniwha
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Re: Masculine negatives problems

The first time I heard ない→ねぇ・すごい→すげぇ in the wild (as such) was from a (youngish) female speaker, so even that's not particularly masculine.

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Quote Post 4

  • Registered: 2008-03-01
  • Posts: 759

Re: Masculine negatives problems

Given that I've so often heard men use feminine terms and women use masculine terms (even かい　←　か), I'm wondering if these masculine/feminine divisions could be wholly artificial ... or perhaps misleading, more along the lines of grammatical feminine/masculine divisions. (masculine being rougher, feminine being softer, say)

ーーーーーーーーーー

「デェ、この微分[color=gray]びぶん[/color]・積分[color=gray]せきぶん[/color]とかゆうのは、足し算[color=gray]たしざん[/color]・引き算[color=gray]ひきざん[/color]とはどう違[color=gray]ちが[/color]うのだ？」 白雪

Quote Post 5

  • boon-nas
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Re: Masculine negatives problems

richvh wrote:

ない⇒あらん (あらない isn't used, but あらぬ is, and ～ん comes from ～ぬ, not ～ない.)

It's true that あらぬ is used, but あらぬ does not mean ない(=do not exist) in modern Japanese (see below).
And あらん is not used at all.

e.g.
知らないの？　→　知らんの？
何かしたいことないの？　→　? 何かしたいことあらんの？ (unnatural)

大辞泉 wrote:

あら‐ぬ【有らぬ】
［連体］《動詞「あり」の未然形＋打消しの助動詞「ず」の連体形から。そうあるはずではない事柄をさしていう》

１ 違った。別の。無関係の。「―方向に走り去る」

２ 意外な。思いもかけない。「―うわさを立てられる」

３ あってはならない。不都合な。「―横恋慕」

大辞林 wrote:

あらぬ
(連体)
〔補説〕 動詞「ある」に打ち消しの助動詞「ぬ」が付いたもの
［1］    違っている。見当違いの。
    ・    ―方向に目をやる
［2］    あってはならぬ。常識はずれの。
    ・    ―ことを口走る
［3］    思いがけない。意外な。
    ・    ―うわさをたてられる
    ・    ―疑いをかけられる

英語の勉強、やってます。

Quote Post 6

  • From: Saga, Japan
  • Registered: 2006-06-26
  • Posts: 138

Re: Masculine negatives problems

How about substituting ぬ for ない？

それがぬ。

Nah, doesn't seem natural.  What did people use instead of ない?  The plain negative of ある wasn't always ない, was it?  ござらぬ?

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Quote Post 7

  • boon-nas
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Re: Masculine negatives problems

Faumdano gave (or, has given? hmm) us a very clear explanation.

Faumdano wrote:

First, ん only applies to verbs:
しらない　→　しらん
いない　→　おらん
時間がない　→　Ｘ

Second, ん isn't masculine per se. It's just a short, semi-old sounding negative. If you insist on wanting to sound 'masculine' use the えぇ transformation for words:

いない　→　いねぇ
時間がない　→　時間がねぇ
しらない　→　しら（ん）ねぇ・しんねぇ

claytonian wrote:

What did people use instead of ない?

When ない is used as a predicate adjective (like 「時間がない」), there's no substitute for it.

英語の勉強、やってます。

Quote Post 8

  • From: Saga, Japan
  • Registered: 2006-06-26
  • Posts: 138

Re: Masculine negatives problems

I mean in the past.  Samurai times and such.

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Quote Post 9

  • boon-nas
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Re: Masculine negatives problems

claytonian wrote:

I mean in the past.  Samurai times and such.

Oh. tongue
Yes, I hear ござらぬ in 時代劇 and something like that.

Last edited by boon-nas (2008-07-17 00:48:37)

英語の勉強、やってます。

Quote Post 10

  • Registered: 2008-05-14
  • Posts: 740

Re: Masculine negatives problems

Given that I've so often heard men use feminine terms and women use masculine terms (even かい　←　か), I'm wondering if these masculine/feminine divisions could be wholly artificial ... or perhaps misleading, more along the lines of grammatical feminine/masculine divisions. (masculine being rougher, feminine being softer, say)

Yes, the difference of masculine or feminine usege of speaking has recently been colapsed in practice, especially among yonger generations. It almost seems preserved only in creation. That said it could be more proper to say it returned, since there was no difference in speach manner between sex, at least in medieval era or before.

Quote Post 11

  • Registered: 2007-10-28
  • Posts: 133

Re: Masculine negatives problems

irankarapte wrote:

Yes, the difference of masculine or feminine usege of speaking has recently been colapsed in practice, especially among yonger generations. It almost seems preserved only in creation. That said it could be more proper to say it returned, since there was no difference in speach manner between sex, at least in medieval era or before.

I have heard girls say 僕, but have you EVER heard a girl refer to herself seriously by 俺 or 俺様?
And... have you ever seen a guy refer to himself seriously by　あたし？
There may be a bit of decline on the gender specific natures of some words, but there are some lines that seem to not be crossed...

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Best line ever from a Japanese エロゲ:
「こんなアメリカンサイズ、あすかには。。。」

Quote Post 12

  • Registered: 2008-05-14
  • Posts: 740

Re: Masculine negatives problems

My mother calls herself オレ due to the diarect, it's quite natural in the region I belong to, for elder generations. And that おれさま stuff is only for creations from the beginning. As you said, あたし is never for guys. As for 1st person's pronouns, the separation is relatively retained. And I have encountered two ボク少女s who was in the same class when I'm in junior high.

Quote Post 13

  • Registered: 2007-12-07
  • Posts: 526

Re: Masculine negatives problems

I don't think many guys say かしら either. I hear it's also less common among younger women and girls - is that true?

How about あたい and おら? Are they only dialectal?

irankarapte: It's "dialect", btw.

Quote Post 14

  • From: Saga, Japan
  • Registered: 2006-06-26
  • Posts: 138

Re: Masculine negatives problems

There is tough language, and then there if feminine language.  Guess which one guys tend to use.
Nobody ever uses 俺様 in real life.

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Quote Post 15

  • bubblebath
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Re: Masculine negatives problems

I have encountered two ボク少女s who was in the same class when I'm in junior high.

!!!実在してたのか、ボク少女って。お話の中だけだと思ってたわ。

Please correct my English.

Quote Post 16

  • Registered: 2008-05-14
  • Posts: 740

Re: Masculine negatives problems

I think あたい is irrelevant to dialects, while おら ←　おれは. And かしら seems originate a certain regional dialect in somewhere Tokyo metropolitan (perhaps Tama region?), irrelevant to sex. In Doraemon mangas, There was some parts Nobita says かしら which will be extinct today. As a whole, females have come to be closer to males in speach rather than vice versa.

Quote Post 17

  • Registered: 2008-03-01
  • Posts: 759

Re: Masculine negatives problems

And that おれさま stuff is only for creations from the beginning. As you said, あたし is never for guys.

The same is true of わたし、Pre-Meiji

But that aside, perhaps my　comment would have been better worded as "predominantly", rather than as "wholly" artificial.

Faumdano gave (or, has given? hmm) us a very clear explanation.

二つがただしい。　”Gave"は誰 によって行なわれた動きを知らせる。
”Has given"は何かが俺たちの所有権にあるようになった方法を知らせる.　
or should that last be
何かが俺たちの所有に入って来た手段を知らせます
(if either turns out to be right, 驚くことになる）

Last edited by 運転者 (2008-07-17 09:14:08)

ーーーーーーーーーー

「デェ、この微分[color=gray]びぶん[/color]・積分[color=gray]せきぶん[/color]とかゆうのは、足し算[color=gray]たしざん[/color]・引き算[color=gray]ひきざん[/color]とはどう違[color=gray]ちが[/color]うのだ？」 白雪

Quote Post 18

  • Registered: 2007-12-07
  • Posts: 526

Re: Masculine negatives problems

irankarapte wrote:

I think あたい is irrelevant to dialects, while おら ←　おれは. And かしら seems originate a certain regional dialect in somewhere Tokyo metropolitan (perhaps Tama region?), irrelevant to sex. In Doraemon mangas, There was some parts Nobita says かしら which will be extinct today. As a whole, females have come to be closer to males in speach rather than vice versa.

I think I remember the rakugo master in Tiger & Dragon (2005 drama series) using かしら in some sentences - and he was definitely from Edo. Maybe that dialect is the origin. I wonder where it came from, though...maybe it was かしらない・ぬ・ん?

Quote Post 19

  • boon-nas
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Re: Masculine negatives problems

creamyhorror wrote:

maybe it was かしらない・ぬ・ん?

Exactly.

大辞林 wrote:

かしら
〔補説〕 「か知らぬ」の変化した「かしらん」の転。近世江戸語以降の語。現代語では、女性の話し言葉に用いられる

To 運転者:
Thanks! smile So, it depends.

”Has given"は何かが俺たちの所有権にあるようになった方法を知らせる.

Actually, I don't get this part. Can you possibly explain it in English?

英語の勉強、やってます。

Quote Post 20

  • Registered: 2008-03-01
  • Posts: 759

Re: Masculine negatives problems

”Has given"　makes known the source of that which is in our possession. (it is a present perfect form.)
"has given"は俺たちの所有権にあるそれの源を知らせます.
Hopefully that is a little more like real Japanese.

Last edited by 運転者 (2008-07-17 11:25:34)

ーーーーーーーーーー

「デェ、この微分[color=gray]びぶん[/color]・積分[color=gray]せきぶん[/color]とかゆうのは、足し算[color=gray]たしざん[/color]・引き算[color=gray]ひきざん[/color]とはどう違[color=gray]ちが[/color]うのだ？」 白雪

Quote Post 21

  • boon-nas
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Re: Masculine negatives problems

Thanks! I got it.
FYI: In Japanese, I'd say it like:
"has given"は、俺たちが今持っているものが、どこから来たか(ということ)を知らせる(言い方だ)。

英語の勉強、やってます。

Quote Post 22

  • Registered: 2008-05-14
  • Posts: 740

Re: Masculine negatives problems

Creamhorror wrote:

I think I remember the rakugo master in Tiger & Dragon (2005 drama series) using かしら in some sentences - and he was definitely from Edo. Maybe that dialect is the origin. I wonder where it came from, though...maybe it was かしらない・ぬ・ん?

The speach in creations differs from what it was in reality. If not, audiences can't understant what they are speaking. And I'm for your theoly; ～か・知らない.

Quote Post 23