Ah ignorance is bliss. When I first compared Chinese to Japanese, I had only the most rudimentary knowledge of Chinese so my comparison was a bit misinformed. Almost a year later, my Chinese skills are… still rudimentary. I guess it can’t be helped considering the fact that I spend about 1/10 of the time I used to spend learning Japanese. However, I do know quite a bit more than I used to so here is an updated and slightly more informed comparison.
I still think Chinese is much easier than Japanese as I mentioned in my first comparison except for two main problems. One annoying issue for me personally is that most of the reading materials available nearby are in traditional Chinese probably due to the large number of Taiwanese people living in Seattle. The other difficulty I have is the one aspect of Chinese I seriously underestimated: grammar. I just can’t seem to get a good handle on Chinese grammar because really there is no grammar.
What I mean by “no grammar” is that I can’t identify any kind of common pattern to how you should arrange or structure your sentences. In Japanese, once you figure out that verbs come last and that subordinate clauses can directly modify nouns, you can logically figure out how to arrange your sentence most of the time. In addition, the function each word plays is clear regardless of order thanks to the magic of particles. However, in Chinese I’m often lost about where I should start my sentence and how to put all the words together to match my thoughts.
For example, let’s look at the classic example of, “How do you say ‘student’ in Chinese?”.
How do you say ‘student’ in Chinese?
「student」は中国語で何といいますか。
“student”中文怎么说？
Now, anybody would probably agree that the Chinese version is much easier to understand. In Japanese, you have the quotation 「と」 particle and the verb is conjugated into the polite form. With Chinese, you have three words strung together: “Chinese how say”. But the simplicity of Chinese grammar (or the lack of) is what confuses me. Can I say “中文’student’怎么说”, “‘student’怎么说中文”, or “中文怎么说’student'”? Goodness, think how confusing it would be if I asked, “中文英语怎么说?”
This is usually how Japanese and Chinese grammar differ. Chinese is much easier to learn at first but you pay the price later on. Though it depends on your learning style, you can imagine how difficult it is for someone like me who wrote a whole guide based on the structure and logic of Japanese grammar. I just don’t feel comfortable in Chinese, especially for more complicated sentences.
Chinese: 31 flavors, take your pick
You may think having no verb tenses would make things easier but you would be wrong. In Japanese, while the conjugation rules are a pain to memorize, the concepts are much closer to what we’re used to in English. For instance, a verb in the past tense means that the verb happened in the past. Simple, huh? Not in Chinese where tenses don’t exist. Take a look at the following simple sentences.
昨天去。- Yesterday go (past).
今天去。 – Today go (present).
明天去。- Tomorrow go (future).
Looks pretty easy right? But what if you don’t include when it happened? How do you indicate it happened in the past? One thing you can do is to attach “了”. If you know Japanese, you can guess from words like 「完了」 and 「終了」 that “了” indicates that the single action is complete. But if you want to say that you finished the act completely, you can attach “完”. Or you can do both!
There is also “过” which is the simplified version of 「過」 and means something has past, pretty much the same as 「過ぎる」. But besides being its own verb, it’s also another one of these characters you can attach to other verbs. This is pretty much how all of Chinese grammar works. You take certain characters that have a certain meaning and attach it somewhere in your sentence. Sigh…
你看了吗？ – Did you see/read (past)?
你看完吗？ – Did you finish seeing/reading?
你看完了吗？ – Did you finish (past) seeing/reading?
你去过吗？ – Have you gone?
你去过了吗？- Have you gone (past)?
春节过完了。 – New Year’s has past and finished.
It’s crazy, there’s just no grammar here, just characters that you can attach here and there and some are insidiously similar to others. In fact, some of these examples might not be natural Chinese (see comments) but I’m not good enough to tell.
I can go on (for example, 下着雨 vs 在下雨) but I think you get the idea. The point is, you have to learn how each individual character works, its nuances, and how it interacts in the sentence as a whole.
I have always maintained that the hardest part of learning languages is vocabulary because there’s just so much and you have to learn the nuance and usage of every word. In Chinese, grammar is basically just more vocabulary!
Conclusion
As I get farther into Chinese, I personally find Chinese grammar to be much more difficult than Japanese. While Japanese has more rules and conjugations, I think the benefit of having that structure carries with you later on. However, I would admit that it’s a difficult comparison to make and will probably depend on each person. What I can say with confidence is that Chinese grammar is by no means easy! For those of you with experience learning both languages, what do you think?
Update:
I just want to leave you all with this neat tidbit I just found at: http://www.ctcfl.ox.ac.uk/Chinese/grammarlist.htm
Use of the 正 在 V 着 O 呢 zhènzài V zhe O ne sentence pattern [9]
This sentence pattern indicates that an action is under way. Note that some of the elements of this pattern can be omitted: all the following sentences mean he is watching TV.
1. 他 正 在 看 着 电 视 呢 tā zhèngzài kànzhe diànshì ne full version
2. 他 正 看 着 电 视 呢 tā zhèng kànzhe diànshì ne without 在 zài
3. 他 在 看 着 电 视 呢 tā zài kànzhe diànshì ne without 正 zhèng
4. 他 正 在 看 电 视 呢 tā zhèngzài kàn diànshì ne without 着 zhe
5. 他 正 在 看 着 电 视 tā zhèngzài kànzhe diànshì without 呢 ne
6. 他 在 看 电 视 呢 tā zài kàn diànshì ne without 正 zhèng and 着 zhe
7. 他 看 电 视 呢 tā kàn diànshì ne without 正 zhèng , 在 zài and 着 zhe
Isn’t Chinese so fun?
Further Reading:
Contrasting English Tense and Mandarin Aspect
My chinese knowledge is almost non-existant, but i’d always thought that because it has no grammar it’d be easier than japanese, and you only needed to worry about pronunciation. Interesting post, i’ll keep it in mind if i ever start to study chinese ;)!
By the way, congratulations for your new blog!! I think that a lot of people like me, that came here at first because of japanese, are also interested in posts about other languages, so keep on!
I have learned Chinese a little bit (and stopped learning because I don’t want to remember all those cryptic characters (that was before I decided to learn Japanese though)) and found out that Chinese grammar is pretty similar to Thai (my native tongue) grammar. Or we can say that both languages have no grammar.
When I told my Japanese friends that Thai has no grammar, all of them laughed and did not believe me. They might think that I was like many people who cannot explain their own language systematically. Indeed there are patterns or rules behind all sentences in Thai or Chinese but there are so many exceptions that you have to remember all along and the number could be over thousands easily. You are right that It is more like word usage.
Not that I’m a Chinese grammar expert, but I would never say “你看完吗?”, and I’m not really sure if that’s grammatically correct (whatever that means in the Chinese language). I would most likely go with “你看完了吗?” if I wanted to ask someone if they’ve read it. Like all languages, there’s always going to be shortcuts to saying the same thing, so I’m guessing the first form is just the result of that. Sort of like shortening the present progressive form in Japanese:
v + して + いる –> v + してる
If you did leave out the “了”, I’m sure people would still understand what you mean.
With regards to “How do you say ’student’ in Chinese?”, 中文’student’怎么说 sounds like the correct one. “’student’怎么说中文” sounds like, “how do student say Chinese?”. Although, honestly, all these forms sounds ambiguous to me. If you wanted to be specific, I’d go with:
‘student’用中文怎么说 = Using Chinese, how do you say ‘student’
That’s because you’re looking at it semantically for that specific sentence not in a general case grammatically. Google has a million results for “看完吗” so I think it’s valid for many types of sentences. For example, what about the question: 你一直能看完吗？
Ooh, forgot about the 用. Good one. Yes, “Student Chinese how say?” is very ambiguous. Fortunately, English has grammar which makes that sentence “cave-man” talk. In Chinese, it’s perfectly normal.
Maybe I misread it, but I thought the examples you posted were trying to point out problems with specifying past tense in Chinese. 你一直能看完吗？is not past tense. Just scanning some of the results of doing a google search on “看完吗”, came back with sentences like “有胆看完吗”, “你敢看完吗”, or “能耐心看完吗?”. Again, these aren’t past tense. They are asking about one’s ability to finish reading something.
However, both 你去过吗 and 你去过了吗 sound acceptable to me, and I’m still not sure why. If I was a beginner, I’d probably go with “你去过了”. Nothing in Chinese says you can’t over specify things. 🙂
Exactly! It just goes to show how tricky it is to show tense in Chinese because it doesn’t exist!
I haven’t practiced in quite a whle, so my level of chinese is declining, but I disagree. Well, at least a little. Yes, there are plenty of ways you can make valid sentenses. But if you practice enough, it all feels very natural. And the reason you don’t see the pattern is probably that nobody has written a guide for Chinese as good as the one you wrote for Japanese.
I think you are likely to find it just as hard to express past in Chinese using 过 了 and 完 that trying to express the subject in Japanese with は and が. That’s just not how it works, and people telling you complex rules based on these words to express the past are just confusing. There is no past. There are no tenses.
了 expresses that an action is/was/will be completed.
完 expresses that the action is done thoroughly
过 expresses experience
so,
吃完 : eat everything (in your plate)
example : 你就把这个吃完啊 = Just eat it all!
吃了 : reach the end of the act of eating
example: 今天晚上吃了以后，去散步怎么样 = How about going for a walk tonight, after we finish dinner
吃过 : have (had) the experience of eating
example: 吃过鸭的人就不会觉得鸡好 = No one that has eaten duck can think chicken is better. (also apply to people who haven’t tried yet. Once they do, they will agree)
The general patten is:
V + Vm
V is the main verb carying the meaning
Vm is a secondary modal verb, which changes the mode (not tense) of the main one.
If you need an object complement, the standard ways would be: V + O + V + Vm, or 把+ O + V + Vm, or you may be able (in certain cases?) to just ommit the first repeated verb or 把, and directly go for O + V + Vm, but that would be more tricky, and I’d leave that aside until it sounds obvious. Also, for some, but not all modal verbs, you can do V + Vm + O
You need to know tons of modal verbs to be able to express various nuances, but that is a vocabulary question, not a grammar one.
The 正 在 V 着 O 呢 pattern you described fits into this, if you know how to break it down:
* V + Vm + O, where Vm is 着 mean that the action is continuous
* add circumtance complement 正在 which means something like “right now” at the head of the sentence, where all circumtance complements are supposed to go
* Add the 呢 final particle (which adds a nuance I forgot quite a while a go)
Going back to your first example of ’student’中文怎么说, the reason that you can change the order of 中文 and ’student’ is that you are actually omitting words. The full sentence should be 用中文怎么说’student’, or if you want to move student before the verb, use 用中文把’student’怎么说 (Not 100% sure about this one. 把 might not be correct here. Once more, Chinese was long ago for me). The 用 makes it pretty clear what the role of 中文 is: “using Chinese, how do you say student?”. Since the roles are obvious, there is no reason to enforce one order or the other. And since in this case, the meaning is really obvious, you can drop the 用 and 把, and no one will complain. But of course, if it is not obvious, as would be the case of “中文英语怎么说?”, you should not drop words. There is no ambiguity in “用中文英语怎么说?”
Hope that helps.
One more example with 着 as a modal verb, still meaning the action is continuous, but in not in the pattern you said:
你干嘛一直看着电脑？
Which means:
What the **** are you doing staring at that computer all the time?
Breaking the sentence down
你(you)干嘛(What the *** are you doing) 一直(endlessly) 看着 (look continuously) 电脑 (computer)？
Here again, you find the
S + V + Vm + O : 你看着电脑 : you continuously look at the computer
Oh, one more before I go to bed:
You complained about:春节过完了
If you look at it this way, would it make sense?
S=春节 V=过 Vm=完了
过, used as a Vm, is about experience (a bit like Japanese 〜たことがある). Sure, but here, it is used as a verb, and in that case, it means to pass, to go through. So we have:
春节(New year) 过(pass) 完(entierly)了(action completed), or in simple english “New year is over”.
The extra rule you need here is that you can not often combine two Vm, but certain combinations are possible. Generally, 了 can be combined, and when it does, it always comes last. Actually, I can’t think of any other Vm that can be combined, but I am not sure if it is because there are none and 了 is special, or if it is because I am a bit tired.
Thanks for the clarification. I’ll take a careful look at your comments and see if I can figure it out. Maybe a Chinese guide to grammar is possible! It’s tough when you have to figure it out from scratch. You would think somebody would do something about that.
You’re right, the best thing to do is to throw away any preconceived notion of “tense” just like how you have to throw away the notion of “subject” in Japanese. In fact, I’m finding that it’s best to throw away the whole notion of noun/verb/adjective. There’s no point when words can switch roles so easily. In fact, the definition of “word” is even a tricky thing in Chinese when you can split them up like 睡觉 vs 睡一觉.
It just goes back to my point in that grammar in Chinese is basically just more vocabulary. Some are just more important and trickier than others.
I’m learning more and more how much Chinese differs from all the languages I currently know. Chinese is similar to English my ass!
睡觉, 吃饭, 走路 all follow the same pattern. The real verb is just the first character, not the group. But verbs in Chinese can not be used naked and alone, so you have a default object complement that you stick at the end of it, when you have nothing else. If you want to 睡 something else than a 觉, you can. 睡一觉 is not so much inserting 一 between the two characters, that replacing the default complement 觉 by another one, 一觉. It looks tricky because they contain the same character, though.
As for saying that you need to drop the notion of noun/verb/adjective. I think you are onto something, but you’d go too far if you discard the whole categories. I think various words do not belong to these categories, but these categories do exist, and the sentense patterns are based on these categories. Various words can be used in several categories, with slightly different meanings.
For instance, 过 is not a verb, nor a modal particle. But it can be used as a verb, meaning “pass, cross, go through”, while used as a modal particle, it expresses the notion of experience.
I was watching Close Encounters of the Spooky Kind 2 this week and thinking about learning Cantonese, it sounds so fun, especial when a familiar-sounding “hai” shows up, but looks pretty hard here.
Yeah and Cantonese is even harder than Mandarin I hear. But that’s what makes it fun, right? Or maybe somethings just wrong with me.
Agreed. In fact in any Chinese dictionary there is no part of speech marker for nouns, verbs, and adjectives. (The “substantial words”) Adverbs and prepositions however are marked.
I think one reason why Chinese is so hard is that there isn’t a starting point. (unlike Japanese.) As far as I know, a systematic way of learning Chinese hasn’t been discovered yet. The simplest concepts/characters can have multiple meanings and uses, each with its own special grammar. The learner cannot just know one rule and apply it to other words. Even worse, sometimes a sentence can be ungrammatical just because it is “incomplete”. Like the sentence
niao3 fei1 (“The bird flies” in English)
There is nothing in grammar books that tells you that the above sentnece is wrong, yet a native speaker, though understanding what the sentence means, would probably think it’s unnatural. You need to specify how or where the bird flies. Something like “niao3 zai4 tian1 kong1 fei1” (The bird flies in the sky.) or “niao3 fei1 de0 heng3 kuai4” is nautral and complete.
Yes, I agree a systematic approach is out. The only way I could think to approach it is to examine key parts like 就，才，不，没，了，在，着，将，的，得，能，会，把，上，下，什么，怎么 etc. in depth. You’re right, I think the rest would just have to come from practice in order to get the same “native sense”, which is what I’m trying to do now.
“Yes, I agree a systematic approach is out. The only way I could think to approach it is to examine key parts like 就，才，不，没，了，在，着，将，的，得，能，会，把，上，下，什么，怎么 etc. in depth. You’re right, I think the rest would just have to come from practice in order to get the same “native sense”, which is what I’m trying to do now.”
It’s a great approach but I think this systematic approach works only for vernacular Chinese. (白話) In addition to learning “Chinese,” the learner has also to contend with classical Chinese (文言) because often writers will insert some classic usage into their prose.
I’ll let you know when I get that far. I certainly won’t be writing any guide to Chinese for a very long time!
i just thought it is difficult for korean and chinese to get wetern concept and logic to translate into their language?
I am wondered that Chinese is not inconvenient even if there is no particle and 格変化
a Kanji of image for the chinese is far wider than the Japanese think.
It is said that a lot of Chinese characters are omitted when the Japanese shows the Chinese poem to famous Chinese master poet.
It is because the concept of his Chinese character is wide.
because it is based on the chinses History..
that is way The knowledge of all ancient writings was needed
for the eunuch
The Japanese can read the literature of China in Japanese,
and Japanese itself is not changed at all.
it is not read as Chinese. it is read as Japanese
Just some thoughts I have on some sentences posted, as a native speaker. I can’t really explain these, since I haven’t attempted to read up on teaching/learning Chinese as a foreign language, resulting in my inability to speak in grammatical lingo, but some things sound unnatural to me even though they are technically correct.
Thinking of 一直 = always, 能 = “potential indicator”, “你一直能看完吗?” means something like “Can you always watch finish this?”. “你能看完吗?” means “Can you watch finish this?”, or in proper English, “Can you finish watching this?”, which is correct. This explains why E.N.’s post mentioned dares and requests – it’s identical in meaning to the English translation in every way.
“你一直看完吗?”, however, means “You always watch finish this?” – which is strange, because as you mentioned “完” is used to indicate the completion of an action, hence by saying that you end up meaning that you are in a constant “loop” of “completion”, if you get what I mean.
Following that, “你一直看吗?” is perfectly fine – “(Are) You always watch(ing) (it)?”. Yet if we throw in 能 into the picture, it is apparent that there is some sort of grammar to the language and sentence order means quite a lot. “你能一直看吗?” = “Can you keep (on) watch(ing)?”, with 能 acting on 一直看. “你一直能看吗?” on the other hand has a completely different meaning with 能 acting only on 看 and 一直 subsequently acting on “能看” – “Can you always watch?”.
By my interpretation, “student”中文怎么说？” “中文’student’怎么说” can only mean “How do you say ‘student’ in Chinese?”, because there is no language called “student”.
“中文英语怎么说?” will only be interpreted as “How do you say ‘Chinese’ in English?”. In spoken form, there is a slight emphasis on the “中文”, similar to how quotes are differentiated in spoken English.
“’student’怎么说中文” would be interpreted as “How does ‘student’ say Chinese”, and “中文怎么说’student’” as “How does Chinese say ‘student’?”
To give another example, Google gives me “为什么Google能一直领先？” – “Why can Google always be in the lead?”. Do a little swap, we get “为什么Google一直能领先？” – “How can Google always be in the lead?”. To understand why “why” became a “how”, understand that, the first sentence has 能 acting on 一直领先 (always in the lead), while the second sentence has 能 acting only on “领先” (“can be in the lead”) with 一直 acting on the entire “能领先” part. I cracked my head trying to think of a proper English translation of both phrase to illustrate the difference, but ended up getting a similar translation for both; I think it’s better to understand the entire concept of placing a word before another.
Sentence order matters a lot more in Chinese if looked at this way. Rearranging sentences can have a significant effect on the meaning of a sentence. Yet particles exist to a certain extent in Chinese that allows it to have a little flexibility in sentence order, although not to the extent of Japanese.
Like E.N. mentioned, “’student’用中文怎么说” shows the ‘particle’ 用 in action. However, the 用 is acting on 中文 and not “student” – “用中文’student’怎么说” means the same thing (“Using Chinese, how do you say ‘student’?”), but 中文’student’用怎么说 and 用’student’中文怎么说 is gibberish, showing the importance of particle placement. The 用 in this case must be differentiated from the 用 in the case of the student actually using Chinese.
“春节过完了” is unnatural and probably grammatically incorrect as well. It’s “春节过了”; I’m not too sure about the ‘correct’ reason, but if I were to take a guess I’d say it’s because 春节 is a period of time and not an action by itself, making “完” inappropriate.
E.N. is right in that 你去过吗 and 你去过了吗 are both acceptable, but the nuances are slightly different, altered by the presence of 了. It’s really hard to explain, but “你去过吗” is a simple, stiff “Have you been there?” while if someone said “你去过了吗” to me it would seem like I “should” go to the place and overall softens and makes the sentence more friendly. “你去过吗” seems like a less standoffish, less distant “行きましたか” to me.
今天晚上吃了以后，去散步怎么样 – usually, “今天晚上” is substituted with “今晚”. I think it’s similar to how 今日の夜 is almost never used in Japanese with 今夜 or 今晩 being used instead, and how we never use “today’s night” in English. You might also want to specify that it’s “吃了饭”. “怎么样” is can be contracted to “怎样” in semi-casual to casual situations. I’d actually say “今晚吃了饭后，去散步怎样” – a sentence that’s grammatically correct and means the same thing, with a slight loss of formality but is much more natural-sounding.
吃过鸭的人就不会觉得鸡好 actually means “People that have eaten duck will not think chicken is good”, because the comparative 比较 is not present in the sentence. “People that have eaten duck will not think chicken is better” should be “吃过鸭的人就不会觉得鸡比较好吃”, with the final 吃 at the end to “specify” and make the entire thing sound more natural.
Furthermore, having the 就 causes the sentence to have a slightly different nuance from “吃过鸭的人不会觉得鸡比较好吃”. In a normal situation, I would not add the 就, because it conveys a slight meaning of “because”, “reasoning” and “explanation” to the sentence – kind of like a very, very subtle explanatory particle の. It might also be better to specify that it’s 鸭肉 and 鸡肉 to sound more natural.
For the original translation of “No one that has eaten duck can think chicken is better”, I would suggest saying “每(一)个吃过鸭肉的人(都)不会觉得鸡肉比较好吃” to properly convey the “no one” part of the sentence. Notice a 都 can be added – I can’t really explain it properly to a CFL learner other than say that it is more natural that way and has a slightly different nuance (that I find myself unable to explain!).
文言文 is something everyone who knows the Chinese language well enough has to encounter, and I find that 文言文 is something in which the meaning of each 汉字 must truly be understood in order to understand, but in reality 文言文 is very rarely encountered and is getting rarer. Almost always the only times when 文言文 is encountered is in novels. Proverbs and idioms, however, are more frequently encountered and the common ones should be remembered, most of them being 4-word idioms.
I’ve never realised how difficult Chinese is for someone who is learning it as a foreign language until now.
Thanks for the corrections and clarifications. Ugh… I have a feeling that it’s going to be a long time before I get the “native sense”. Write now, it all sounds the same to me.
I still don’t get all the different usages of 会.
不会觉得 sounds like “can’t think that…” to me and not “will not think…”
“文言文 is something everyone who knows the Chinese language well enough has to encounter, and I find that 文言文 is something in which the meaning of each 汉字 must truly be understood in order to understand, but in reality 文言文 is very rarely encountered and is getting rarer. Almost always the only times when 文言文 is encountered is in novels. Proverbs and idioms, however, are more frequently encountered and the common ones should be remembered, most of them being 4-word idioms.”
I disagree. 文言文 is well alive in formal writings. (Though, of course, not in popular forms of fiction, but that does not lessen its importance.)
I still don’t get all the different usages of 会.
不会觉得 sounds like “can’t think that…” to me and not “will not think…”
My Chinese dictionary gives three grammatical usages for 会
1. “having the ability of” 我会游泳.(My dictionary also says 会 is usually used for things that can be learned.
2. “being experienced at something 擅长”: 能说会道. 他会写会画.
3. “Expressing the possibility of an event happening.” 果子熟了,自然会掉下来.” (Notice 自然 in the sentence.)
不会觉得 I think is closer to 3.
AA Chinese is too hard… Honestly I don’t want to think about Chinese grammar. It’s a headache for me. (Strange beause I’ve never seen a English native speaker having this kind of problem.)
The current Chinese language as I see it is in a state of influx, still retaining traces of 文言, whose grammar differs from that of the vernacular language. Hence it’s difficult to set down rules because what defines “Chinese,” 白话文 or 文言文?
Thanks, so in this case 会 is kind of like かもしれない? How is it different from 有可能?
“文言文 is well alive in formal writings. (Though, of course, not in popular forms of fiction, but that does not lessen its importance.)”
I live in Singapore, where two languages (English and a mother tongue) are taught from a young age and thus many achieve a suitable level of proficiency in both languages. While most can understand a little 文言文, few are capable of writing in it, given our education system’s relative lack of emphasis on the Chinese language.
I think this will be the profile of the many new learners of the language, and there is no need to worry about “learning” 文言文 now, even if your plan is to master the language beyond practical communication proficiency. 文言文 is advanced, even for true native speakers brought up in an almost purely Chinese environment, from what I learnt from Taiwanese peers during an immersion trip in a Taiwanese high school.
“不会觉得 sounds like “can’t think that…” to me and not “will not think…””
Taking out a segment makes things more confusing to understand. It seems like understanding the workings of a word would be easier in the context of a full sentence, given how the English “counterpart” is not fixed. The examples below come from Chinese websites from a Google search.
“我不会觉得遗憾” (“I will not feel regret(ful)”). The 会 here softens the tone of the sentence. Compare to 我不觉得遗憾 (“I don’t feel regret(ful)”), which feels more direct and less “remorseful” in a way. Compare the 3 definitions Kscnoko gave to this use of 会 and somehow something doesn’t quite “fit”. You can force it to definition 1 if you wish, but it still doesn’t “fit”.
“我女朋友会不会觉得我很色？”. 会不会 is one of the “fixed” phrases that indicates possibility, something like “will or will not”. Using a literal translation, the sentence means “Will my girlfriend, or will she not, think I am very perverted?”
“我唱歌就不会觉得痛” (“Because I sing, I won’t feel any pain”). This uses the explanatory property of 就. On a side note, the lack of 时 attached to 唱歌 means it refers to the general act of “singing”, and not just the time period where the person is actually physically singing.
I hope these examples allow you to see how 不会觉得 is closer to “will not think”.
“Thanks, so in this case 会 is kind of like かもしれない? How is it different from 有可能?”
My Japanese isn’t too good to understand all the nuances of かもしれない, but from what I’ve seen it is not a parallel to 会 and does not carry its meaning. かもしれない expresses uncertainty, but 会 expresses certainty. 果子熟了,自然会掉下来 would be 果物が実る時、自然に落ちる. There is no uncertainty regarding the fruits dropping when they are ripe.
有可能 expresses the existence of a possibility: 可能性が有る. When comparing to Japanese, when to use 可能 and when to use 可能性 might get confusing, because we never say 有可能性 but rather 有一个可能性.
In Japanese, 可能性 simply means the noun “possibility” in addition to the chance of the event happening, but in Chinese it actually means the possibility (or should it be “probability” in this case…?) only: the 20%, 60%, or 90% chance of the event occurring. Hence, it is unnatural to say 有可能性 if you want to mean the simple “Is it possible for X to happen?”.
An example: “中国经济今年仍有可能性增长8%” vs “中国经济今年仍有可能增长8%”. The former means “There is still a chance China’s economy may grow 8% this year”, while the latter, without the 性, means “China’s economy may still grow 8% this year”. The general meaning is similar, but there is a small difference in nuance.
Ignore the line “because we never say 有可能性 but rather 有一个可能性”. My mind was still processing what I know into an explanation while cross-referring to Chinese websites; this explaining business is kind of tough.
有可能性 but rather 有一个可能性”.
Both of them sound like bad Chinese to me. Just 有可能 or 可能 is fine.
Words iwth 性 is superflous and a product of Anglicism in Chinese. 一个 is also not necessayr
To serados
Hmm… so it sounds like 会 in this case means “will”. 果子熟了,自然会掉下来. – The fruit is ripe, it will fall naturally.
wow, this is an interesting take on Chinese. I’ve always felt that Chinese is pretty easy grammatically because there really is no grammar. I guess this isn’t true for everyone. Plus it’s such a relief for me to not learn any conjugations. It’s really true that “Chinese grammar” really is just more vocabulary! Also, I’ve never realized how much trouble 了 gives people. Personally, I’ve never had trouble with it, but this is probably because I grew up in a Chinese household, so even though my Chinese is far far far from perfect, some things just feel almost like second nature to me.
And as a side note, about your comment on simplified Chinese reading materials not available, I really feel that one should learn traditional Chinese first. There so much culture and meaning to the traditional characters that gets lost when made into simplified. Plus, it seems that learning simplified after learning traditional would be an easier transition than simplified, then traditional.
I think it’s not just 了 that’s difficult but the complete lack of tense and all the various characters that kind of imply tense but is really just more vocabulary. If the conjugations are simple enough like Japanese, I would prefer them. Now languages like Spanish on the other hand…
You’re probably right about learning traditional first but right now I’m just trying to get to basic conversational level so for example learning 办 instead of 辦 is just a time saver for me. Still, I’ve learned to recognize many traditional characters from watching Taiwanese drama. And it helps that many traditional characters are more similar to the Japanese version than simplified.
Regarding your comment on “wan” and “le”, basically when you use them bother just ignore the “le” because “wan” encompasses le.
I liked your comparison of Chinese and Japanese – I’m studying my third year of Chinese at university and I think what you’re doing is great. I have to say though that once you’ve started learning/grasped the basics of one east asian language it should get easier to learn another one. As Japanese, Korean and Chinese have many linguistic (dunno if thats right) links – such as sound loans and the same characters. I’ve started taking Japanese classes at an evening classes and I have to say, knowing the kanji/characters to alot of words makes it much easier to pick up Japanese. Anyway keep it up Tae Kim!
I still don’t get all the different usages of 会.
不会觉得 sounds like “can’t think that…” to me and not “will not think…”
“Hmm… so it sounds like 会 in this case means “will”. 果子熟了,自然会掉下来. – The fruit is ripe, it will fall naturally.”
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I think it is best to think of 会 as will/can and 不会 as the negative of the two which is won’t/can’t.
You just need to decide its meaning in the context.
Say for the sentence “你不会觉得那太贵吗?”.
Obviously, 不会 in here means “won’t” (you will not think that too expensive?)
In everyday speech, the 会 is sometime omitted.
“你不觉得那太贵吗” (you do not think that too expensive?)
They both mean the same thing, despite the different English translation.
Hope this helps.
Use of the 正 在 V 着 O 呢 zhènzài V zhe O ne sentence pattern [9]
This sentence pattern indicates that an action is under way. Note that some of the elements of this pattern can be omitted: all the following sentences mean he is watching TV.
1. 他 正 在 看 着 电 视 呢 full version
2. 他 正 看 着 电 视 呢 without 在
3. 他 在 看 着 电 视 呢 without 正
4. 他 正 在 看 电 视 呢 without 着
5. 他 正 在 看 着 电 视 without 呢
6. 他 在 看 电 视 呢 without 正 and 着
7. 他 看 电 视 呢 without 正, 在 and 着
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I think the sentences sound more natural if you drop the 呢 at end.
And #7 does not mean “he is watching TV”, it just means “he watches tv”. You would probably use that if someone asks “what are his hobbies?” and you reply with “he watches tv”.
I think the most appropriate version of “he is watching tv” is 他(正)在看电视.
As for the 着, I think you just need to read/listen more to get a hang of it. Most of the time, its existence is redundant.
正在 can be shorten to 在, but not 正. That’s why you see the 着 in the second sentence, which cannot be removed. The second sentence is understandable, but it sounds really unnatural.
Lol, I didn’t know the language I speak everyday could be so hard!!!
I am a native Chinese speaker…so perhaps I can share some things about Chinese grammar.
不会觉得 just means “don’t feel/perceive/think about”
觉 means “feel”
觉得 means “feel about”
The best way to learn chinese grammar is by reading children’s books…then you can learn like how the chinese kids learned with the existing knowledge of grammar!!!
Chinese is a pattern oriented langauge. A pattern can fall out of fashion even though it can form perfectly valid Chinese sentences.