40 thoughts on “A difficult reason for losing motivation”

1. Although I spent 7 months in china in 2007, my two big motivations for learning chinese were 1) to read chinese books, and 2) to speak to chinese speakers in my home city (Vancouver, Canada).

   There’s a huuuuge amount of great chinese literature that hasn’t been translated into english, and i’d hate to miss out on it. I also really like playing Go/Baduk/Weiqi, about which there are comparatively few books in english. By reading chinese, i’ve vastly expanded the number of books available on the topic.

2. TAIWAN, TAIWAN, TAIWAN…it is a much better place to live, but It hasn’t got that rapid change feeling that China has. Even though there are many bad things about China, you only need to think what position the country was in 50 years ago to see there is vast improvement.

   • That’s true, there does seem to be a huge amount of change spurred by the unprecedented economic growth of recent years. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out now that the “China Miracle” has been hit by the global recession.

3. Wait you’re learning Cantonese right? Wouldn’t you be better equipped for a trip to Hong Kong?

   • I wish. Hong Kong sounds like the only exception to the norm in mainland China. I’m learning Mandarin since that seems to be easier both in terms of the actual language as well as learning materials.

4. I really have no idea what the deal is with China, I’m just a poor Dutch student.
   But what I do know is (off-topic alert! *whoop* *whoop*!):

   Your Japanese Grammar Guide is awesome. Thank you!

   (I’m posting this here because I couldn’t find a better way, sorry)

   • Check out the ever awesome forum:
     http://www.guidetojapanese.org/forum/

5. Don’t forget about the air quality… although getting better in some places, it’s still really bad.

6. Interesting how this is brought up as a reason not to study Chinese or go to China, but in all your writings on Japanese you have never once mentioned the blatant xenophobia on a social and governmental level towards foreigners in Japan, the difficulty in renting an apartment if you are a foreigner in Japan, the racial profiling carried out by the police in Japan, even the fact that technically under Japanese law the laughably inadequate ‘human rights’ laws only apply to you if you are a Japanese person.
   All I’m saying is your blog and most of the study Japanese websites on the internet rarely give a balanced picture of Japan while helping all those impressionable anime lovers and Japan-o-philes to improve their Japanese skills in the hope of one day moving to Japan.
   It’s easy to knock China as their shortcomings are well known and well publicized and as you mentioned above unpleasant.
   But how about some honest appraisal of Japan, a country viewed by some many through a set of sushi flavored rose tinted spectacles.

   (just for the record I am a foreigner living in Japan and yes I’ve been to China)

   • The reason I haven’t mentioned any of those things is because I have not personally experienced any xenophobia nor have I had any run-ins with the police. I didn’t have to rent an apartment, either. I found that as a US citizen employed by a Japanese company as well as all the foreigners I’ve met through JET all lived very comfortable lives with a more than reasonable standard of living. I can only write about my personal experiences and they were on the whole, fairly pleasant (except perhaps for the work hours but that really applies to most of the workforce in Japan). Of course, there are many social problems in Japan as well as any other country, I have just not experienced them myself.

     As for the news coming out of China, sub-standard food and environmental standards do affect me very personally. So does the unreasonable prejudice against those with Hepatitis B or carriers of the virus. The unnecessary government crack down on a Hepatitis B advocacy group also alarms me on many levels. Oh, and I also own a dog so all these stories affect me very personally.

     I did not give any reasons for other people to not study Chinese. I am simply writing personally about how it’s difficult to motivate myself given my personal situation.

     Of course, you may have different experiences and issues depending on your situation. I know as an Asian-American who can blend in, my experience is most likely very different from many other foreigners. Perhaps you yourself may have had some unpleasant experiences in Japan. You are free to bash Japan all you want on your blog. I certainly won’t deny that Japan doesn’t have some very real issues to deal with. Goodness, there’s certainly plenty of griping and complaining all over the net. Though if you ask me, having difficulty renting a place pales in comparison to having your baby die because some baby formula manufacturer wanted to be cheap by diluting it with chemicals.

     • Your attitude is very similar although! I think if you go to China first, experience it yourself, you’ll find things aren’t really that bad! Every developing country has their problems, you shouldn’t put a developing country to first world standards. Japan has a %99 conviction rate in their criminal trials, they still have capital punishment and treat prisoners really really bad. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8247319.stm) Good luck finding justice in japan if you ever get accused! Not to mention how rape is treated in the country (see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtDcQy7qz-0 and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTxZXKsJdGU), police don’t care, don’t have rape crisis lines, don’t even bother to collect sperm samples to help find the culprit, have the women go through rape re-inactments.

   • I hate reading comments like these. They make me fear that the next Japanese person I meet might be some racist nutjob and with all levels of authority against me I’m going to end up in prison, SOL.

     “blatant xenophobia on a social and governmental level towards foreigners in Japan”

     In the 2 years I’ve been in Japan, I too have not experienced it. Is it just a matter of time before everyone will turn on me? I’m actually quite serious about that question, because I fail to understand.

     The only problems I have had were due to my Japanese language skills when dealing with not very patient people. I’ve seen far, far worse with non-English speakers back home.

     “the difficulty in renting an apartment if you are a foreigner in Japan”

     This is difficult even if you are Japanese. In my experience, many of the owners are fine if you speak sufficient Japanese (Tokyo might be more accepting than other parts of Japan though).

     “the racial profiling carried out by the police in Japan”

     My only run in with police was completely pleasant. I was pulled over for not having a light on my bicycle at night. The officer advised me to go to the 100 yen store to buy a light and gave me directions to where I was going, since I was horribly lost.

     “the laughably inadequate ‘human rights’ laws”

     I’d be quite interested to hear more about this.

7. Where doesn’t suck?

   You could probably make a list of really horrible things about any country (I can think of some good ones for the US). Yes, there are parts of Chinese society that are brutally unfair, but things are also changing fast and there’s at least hope that some of those things will get better.

   I can totally understand your reaction w/r/t Hepatitis B (a member of my wife’s extended family is a carrier, and they’ve faced all sorts of hurdles growing up), but I think if you focus entirely on the negatives you could talk yourself out of living anywhere.

8. I haven’t spent enough time in China to be in a good position to give you opinions about China. But having spent some time in Taiwan recently, I would say that it’s a pretty nice environment to be in, and definitely a good one for learning Chinese. Traditional characters are not as difficult as they are made out to be, at least the recognition and typing part of it. As you have said, it’s a matter of getting used to it.

9. Firstly, Thank you Tim for publishing my comment (many bloggers would just have deleted it and I respect you for that) and thank you for your considered and eloquent reply.
   I agree that there are,of course, problems everywhere and those that affect me personally in Japan pale into insignificance next to the Hepatitis discrimination, tampered baby formula and contaminated dog food that have affected you in China.
   However as you say we can only talk with any real authority about problems that affect each of us directly.
   I apologize if you feel I was making light of those issues, that was not my intention.

   Secondly, this may very well not be the place to discuss the issues I mentioned relating to Japan, but I would like to respond to your comment and those of some of the other commenters if you would allow me that small indulgence.

   I find it interesting that any criticism of Japan is immediately considered ‘Japan bashing’, a term I believe was invented by Japanese politicians to neutralize and belittle any observations or social criticism (especially that by outside observers) of Japan.
   By branding all social and political criticism of Japan in this way it removes all possibility of a healthy (and sorely needed) dialogue on some very real issues that are faced by ALL those who live in Japan, not just the foreigners.
   I feel that dissenting voices are an essential element in the health of a modern society, they open up areas for discussion and possible improvement and if nothing else they require some thinking about.

   I understand that you and some of the other commenters here have not directly experienced any of the discrimination which I mentioned, but myself and a large number of my friends have experienced it many times and in many forms.

   My spoken Japanese (thanks in no small part to your ‘guide to grammar’) is of a reasonable level and other friends who have experienced problems are far more fluent than I (many of them at JLPT level 1 or 2), so I do not think the issue is one of a communication gap.

   The xenophobia of Japanese politicians is not just my opinion but a matter of public record.
   The same could also be said of the racial profiling carried out by the police and the human rights situation.
   A google search will bring up a multitude of results many of them reports published by well respected institutions and journalists.

   I do not wish to turn this into a Japan-o-phobe/Japan-o-phile argument as I feel this is far too crass a distinction and as Tim has pointed out the internet is already littered with a plethora of such discussions.
   I would hope that in the future a healthy social criticism of Japan can be discussed in the large grey area between ‘Japan is wonderful’ and ‘Japan sucks’ that seems to characterize most discussions at present.

   Lastly I would like to once again thank Tim for his excellent resources on studying Japanese which have been and continue to be invaluable to me and many others and to thank him for publishing my comments here.

   • Thanks for your comment and I basically agree with everything you have said. I definitely think some minorities in Japan are treated not as well as others. Though again, every country has it’s own issues. (Like the ridiculous cost of health care here in the US)

     I would just like to clarify that none of the issues I’ve mentioned have affected me personally because I have never been to China. It just makes me wary of ever thinking of going there like I have to Japan. It’s also unfortunate because China has so many good things about it that interests me. It’s just a pity that the government is so backwards…

10. that’s a really groudy news article man. i know that they also put ant pesticide in meatballs to give the meatballs some more rubberyness.

    I really dont know what to say. I don’t think you’re overreacting either, all that matters is whether or not YOU feel up to continuing studying a language or not, and I do agree, that considering how this effects you on multiple personal levels is quite… bad. ._.;

    I guess i’m glad that my motivation for learning japanese is not interest in legitimate culture topics like hanabata or holidays, or the country itself, so something like this blog post does not drain my motivation for learning the language..

    p.s. the guid to japanese grammar is really, amazing. in my opinion I think it’s far better than most textbooks i’ve read, since it cuts to the chase.

11. Oh, the joys of comunism! Did anyone notice how the sucky things about Japan are directed towards foreigners, while the ones about China affect Chinese citizens?
    I’ve heard similar things about Russia, and don’t even get me started on Cuba or Venezuela, it’s a living hell for their own people.

12. I hope Hong Kong or Taiwan will be good for you. Forget about mainland china, if want to be a human being. Most underdeveloped countries are unfit for living, you first-world people would feel it all the more.

13. I’ve been in Beijing for about 2 months now doing an internship so here are some of my experiences.

    Internet censorship is very annoying. I cannot access YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, WordPress blogs, blogspot, or Mediafire. I keep myself entertained through NicoVideo and 4chan (surprise, surprise, they haven’t blocked this one yet). Thanks to a deal with the government, Wikipedia is (mostly) accessible. The “Censorship in the People’s Republic of China” is not accessible (lol). Internet is speeds are super slow. The connection I’m using now is 70 kb/s tops for download. My connection at work is around 200 kb/s. Good news: the government doesn’t care about copyright so pirate away.

    The government is about as transparent as a black tinted window. For a week, front page headlines on CNN and NYT had the Xinjiang crack down story. I didn’t hear about it on the news or read about it on Sina. You won’t hear anything bad about the government and as such, politics isn’t much for discussion. I was talking about government censorship with one of my colleagues and it was clear she had no idea what this whole “freedom of speech” thing is about. She also felt uncomfortable talking about the government in Chinese so she switched to English. She studied abroad in England and got her Master’s there. Another more well read guy knew more about China’s problems though. He studied law in Hong Kong. He told me Hong Kong isn’t much pressed by the government so any books criticizing the government can just be published there and then distributed else where.

    Sanitation is definitely a problem. For some restaurants, they have a sign out stating the cleanness level given out by the government’s sanitation department. The restaurant in the Ritz Carlton had an “A”. KFC and McDonald’s get a “B”. I saw one restaurant with a “C” rating and you probably don’t want to go to anything below “B”. I’ve vacationed in China about 3-4 times and eaten at some shitty ass restaurants before and only gotten diarrhea once. Maybe I’m lucky?

    Beggars are aplenty, though definitely not as bad as before. The most annoying ones get on the subway. Usually, it’s a tag team, with some woman leading the front while some cripple or diseased guy follow along. Charity is a whole other issue, but don’t give money to these guys; the problem being you have no idea where your money is going. One time I was with a tour group and at one of our stops, there was a whole line of beggars lined up. One of them was a crippled old man. The police suddenly came and started chasing them. If the policeman ran as fast as a bullet, that “crippled” old man bolted as fast as lightning.

    Beijing is dirty. Dust piles up in my apartment pretty damn fast. Littering is a problem since people just don’t give a shit. Thankfully, they have tons of these guys who clean the streets and pick up garbage.

    That’s about it as far as the things I can think off the top of my head. I don’t know much about finding a job or a place to stay, but if you have connections and have those two things taken care of, and If you know Mandarin, I definitely think you can stay in the Mainland for a year or two without getting hassled much. I don’t think it’s bad as “enjoy being treated like an animal” or such other claims. Overall, I think it’d be a good experience to get a feel for what a developing country really is, and see how awesome the US is in comparison. As for me, I can’t wait to get back to the States…

    Oh, one more thing. The government is cracking down on the Swine Flu. Before I even got off my plane, they sent people on board to measure our body temperatures via forehead scanners. They also have temperature scanners in place at the airport. I was stopped once and had to get my temperature taken, this time via thermometer in the armpit. After walking another 30 meters, I was stopped AGAIN and had to take my temperature again via armpit. This time, they thought my temperature was too high so they sent me to see the airport doctor. After getting 37 degrees Celsius a couple more times, they finally let me go with the warning that if I start feeling funny, go to the hospital immediately. All people returning from abroad also have stay at home for a week before they’re allowed to go outside, by government policy. But it’s not like the police are watching you or something.

14. Oh, one more thing. If people know you’re a foreigner, you’ll get ripped off, big time. You’ll have to either act REALLY smooth, or get someone you know how to deal with vendors to show you how it’s done.

15. Oh, one more thing. And this’ll be the last thing, I promise. You hear bad things about the government, but in all likelihood, it probably won’t affect you that much if you’re living here as a foreigner. In the worst case scenario, government agents will ship you to the US Embassy and tell you to go home.

    • Thanks for the informative comment! It sounds like doing a brief stint won’t be too bad. Maybe if I ever go back to school, I’ll think about a study-abroad. That probably won’t happen though for a LONG time.

      I’ve already decided to beef up my traditional character recognition. All those strokes really suck…

      • I believe you’ll love Taiwan as culturally, it’s closer to Japan than China. As for traditional Chinese characters, most of them are written the same as the Japanese Kanjis (although the meaning might be totally different) which I’m sure you must have realized by now.
        You just have to catch the gist on how China simplified the traditional characters although some of the simplifications does not make sense lol

16. Certain occupations in the US also require you to test clean for a variety of diseases before you can be hired, and if you move to a new employer, you have to test clean again. My mom and sister (nurse and school teacher, respectively) are both subject to such tests. I don’t know whether hepatitis is one of the tests, but the conditions they do bother to test for are ones that could otherwise be a problem here, so if we had anywhere near China’s rate of hepatitis infection, it *would* be included. The really annoying one is the TB skin test; not only is it uncomfortable to undergo, but repeated application of the test is known to cause false positives; nonetheless, it still has to be repeated every time you change employers.

    I guess I’m fortunate to work in information technology. Nobody really worries that network administrators are going to be a major vector for the spread of communicable diseases.

    • Ummm… TB can be transmitted through the air. Hep B only transmit through blood, similar to AIDS. Unless sex, needles, giving birth, or blood transfusion are part of your occupation(?), it shouldn’t matter.

17. I just thought I would add something. I studied in Hong Kong until this July, and was there when the tainted milk scandal was breaking.

    What you really realise is that the Mainland China government really doesn’t care about its people. The Mainland government knew about the tainted milk for months during the Olympics, while babies consumed it, but only acted afterwards when the New Zealand government threatened to make the information public. It was lucky that the venture was 50% owned by a Chinese company and 50% by a New Zealand company. There are other instances of contaminated food and babies dying because of milk with no nutritional value in previous years. The formula is always the same – ignore the problem for as long as possible until it’s physically not possible to ignore it, make a lot of propaganda about how you’re solving the problem while doing minimal action, convict and kill a few people who headed up the company (this has happened several times too). Put onto repeat.

    It was a scary situation in Hong Kong when milk was being panic-buyed and contaminated milk, ice cream, sweets and other products were all pulled from the country. Even milk from brands such as Nestle was pulled. Milk prices doubled in less than a week, and now all milk is sourced from nearby countries rather than China. People actively avoid milk from China now.

    The censorship in Mainland is pretty bad although they have government-endorsed alternatives of, for example, Facebook (I can’t remember the name at the moment). Corruption is very widespread and as many others mentioned either people don’t know about the real situation in the world or those that are educated are afraid to talk about it inside China. Outside is OK though, and I heard many Mainland friends cursing the government in Hong Kong.

    It’s also worth mentioning some interesting things about Hong Kong. HK has its own law which is almost identical to British law, and the “way of life” is protected by a treaty between the British and Chinese for 50 years until 2047, with Mainland China having very limited/no power to meddle with laws until then. So, until 2047 Hong Kong is basically a country in its own right, a be it one owned and with a close relationship to China. The HK government makes its own decisions, and while it is heavily influenced by the Mainland government it is still (relatively) uncorrupted and accountable to the people.

    Anyway, I have no idea if that was useful or not, but thanks for the excellent guide and have a great day. 🙂

18. China’s improving slowly at a steady pace. You don’t expect a relatively backward country to become a First World country within 24 hours.

19. Many of my mainland friends are also cursing their own gov inside the mainland. Just that they not dare to bring it up to public.

20. imo nyc is much dirtier and much more dangerous than beijing. if you can survive in nyc, i am sure that you can make in beijing. i have only lived in these two cities, so i can’t make comparisons about other places.

21. check out this chinese forum: (http://www.tianya.cn/new/publicforum/ArticlesList.asp?stritem=free) and (http://www.tianya.cn/publicforum/articleslist/0/develop.shtml).
    you can find many chinese with same opinions as yours in these forums. they are society’s losers and chinese who have a healthy mind rarely be there. you can join in them and curse our government, society, custom, and people as you want. those discussions can convince you that china will collapse tomorrow. I can promise that you won’t be thrown into prison and tortured. you guys’ve got too much anger about china. it could harm your health, if you do not vent it.
    you can also try this forum (http://club.cat898.com/newbbs/index.asp). it is famous for its revelation of the evil and darkness of chinese society. I’ve just heard about it but have never try it. since you can read chinese, you can probe it by youself. wish you enjoy it.

22. you do not need to check out china at all. you already make your judgement. you are already thinking china is a shit. even though you go there, what you can see would just be a shit!

23. Funny how our positions are reversed, in a way. I’ve been studying Japanese after gaining decent proficiency in Chinese, but all traits which are stereotypically ‘Japanese’ always seem to sap my will a bit, as they always seem to be the opposite traits of those I aspire to or admire. Obfuscation and ‘face’ emphasized over honesty, submission to authority and group think emphasized over independence of spirit and critical thinking, superficiality emphasized over any kind of deep thought, xenophobia emphasized over inclusiveness, and so forth. It doesn’t help that stereotypically 可愛い things tends to make me want to vomit up sugar.

    But how many of those stereotypes are actually true, and to what extent? I couldn’t say. I’ve never been to Japan. I’ve been living in Taiwan for the last two years, though; lovely little country, with some of the friendliest people you’ll find anywhere. Many of the stereotypes I’ve heard about the Japanese could apply just as well here, but I still greatly enjoy living here. Given how small it is, I’m not sure if it, by itself, is worth the struggle of grinding through Mandarin and it’s seemingly unending stream of Hanzi, but worth a visit? Absolutely.

    If you need motivation to learn Chinese, particularly the traditional characters, and have any taste for classical literature or history, just keep in mind that China was the standard by which culture was judged in East Asia for many hundred of years for a reason. It’s merely the modern taint of totalitarian thuggish stupidity, and the corresponding growth of stupid in much of the population as evidenced by nini above, that makes the country come across particularly badly now. As well, even without actually liking the modern government of China, I’m glad I’ve got a good handle on Chinese for the same reason I think it would have been interesting to know Russian at the start of the Cold War; China is going to have a massive impact on the 21st century and will almost certainly be one of the most interesting countries in the world to watch.

    • In response to some of the stereotypes, I’d have to say some are true to some extent but not in the way you’d think.

      For example, I find Japanese people much more honest about positive emotions, saying quite plainly if they think you’re cute, pretty, funny, smart, etc. However, there is very much a “If you don’t have anything good to say, don’t say anything” custom, which may be good or bad depending on how you look at it.

      Also, group think is only a facade if you know how to move around within society subtly without causing any waves. Westerners often want to break or remake the rules but you can get as much done in Japan if you know how to subtly bend them. The perceived lack of creativity and independence flies in the face of the amazing innovations the amazing cinema, arts, and technology Japanese people have created such as the DVD.

24. Oh, I should mention that after so much time in Japan you’ll probably find Taiwan a much more familiar place than the mainland: the place sometimes feels like a weird fusion between traditional Chinese and Japanese culture, thanks to a few decades of Japanese rule. Many of the older people speak Japanese quite well. And unlike most of the places occupied by Japan, for reasons I won’t get into, the experience of Japanese rule has left mixed feelings rather than the undisguised hatred so often seen in Korea or China.

25. During your lifetime you’ll have much more often the opportunity to practise a language on the internet or in books than by actually being in a country, so learn Chinese anyway.
    Knowing Chinese will be really useful to further master Japanese and learn caracters uncommon in Japanese which will sound all the more classy, so learn Chinese anyway.
    If the… dubious quality of life in China doesn’t appeal you, go for Taiwan which is overall nicer anyway, be it for tropical climate, landscapes or quality of life, so learn Chinese anyway. (… knock on wood for it not being invaded by China in the near future ^-^)
    If you already speak fluently Japanese and started learning Chinese, assimilating traditional caracters really shouldn’t be much of a hassle, so learn Chinese anyway.

    Vor þe more þat a mon can, þe more wurþe he is.

26. I am from Macau, and grew up in mainland China. I don’t personally experience the things you worried about though, nor my friends.
    News are not always talking about daily life for common people.
    It’s ok if you don’t want to go to China, you can learn French instead, and don’t forget to summarize a french grammar guide…lol…

    • Thanks for the comment. How is the air pollution where you live? That’s currently the #1 reason why I have no interest in China anymore especially since I like the language.

      • I don’t feel oddly when I breath…however air quality is varied in different districts. Considering it’s a developing country, increasing quantities of factory is the problem. Do avoid going to crowded big city like GuangZhou. I had a trip to XinJiang province before, it’s beautiful, and people there are nice. Don’t worry about food poisoning, they will tell you which green tea brand is fake….中国の写真がいろいろありますが、見たいならくれてもいいです。（其实我还是比较想要你学法文啊。。。）

27. Hey Tae Kim. First I want to thank you for your hard work. It helps me a lot in making a better use of my life.
    I am from China, and I am Not a patriot. I felt the same way as you do now. I always thought this country is hopeless, not a little sign of good, not that I can see. I believe I hear much more bad news than you do when I go on the internet, everyday. Even today. I used to live in very low mood. Why am I supposed to live with these people?
    But the weird thing is, as China develops, I can see more and more foreigners even in my hometown, and from my observations to these people, they seem not to be so negative about this country as I do. So do those foreign people I followe on Chinese SNS. Many of them are from Germany, Australia, France, US, or even Japan and Korea.
    I heard a lot about how they say they like this country and enjoy the lives here in non-public occasions. These people are from a place with much more regulated social orders, and a much more facilitied environment, but they do not hate this place as much as I thought they should, and because of this, I started to question my way of looking at it:
    The world is not perfect, it has both good side and bad side. What we are used to and how we think things are are not always true, instead, it depends.
    What happen around us are just decided by something not so conspicuous, and therefore we always overlook it, and this is the way the world runs. It is easy to hate it, but hatred does not change anything. What is important is to understand how the equation works. What will come out on the right if we put so and so on the left.
    Maybe even in a bad surrounding, we can still look at it from a objective position, and live with a peaceful mind? Maybe this is what life is about, to accept the unfairness and the imperfection without giving up to make it better?
    I know it is a little hard understand, these are just some random thoughts, I don’t know exactly how to say it clear.
    However I do hope it would help a little in finding you some motivation from a different source, or block the affect to your oringinal motivation.

    Best wishes.

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